Scot Maupin  0:11  
All right, well, I hit record. Okay. It is fair game. anything being said into microphones is getting recorded.

Adam Braus  0:18  
Okay, I guess we can do like a little intro. Hey, everybody, my name is Adam brouse.

Scot Maupin  0:23  
I am Scott.

Adam Braus  0:24  
And we have a guest with us on solutions from the multiverse today. Tom Sharon. Welcome, Tom, I guys, do you want to say like, do you want to tell us about yourself a little bit like, what's your title? What's your role?

Unknown Speaker  0:37  
Sure thing? Yeah. So I'm a co founder of an organization called the California ranked choice voting coalition.

Adam Braus  0:44  
Great. And that gives a little bit of a little bit of foreshadowing into what what we're going to talk about today.

Scot Maupin  0:51  
I need to Yeah, I'm going to need a lot of information because I am at a very low level of knowledge when it comes to rank choice voting. So this is perfect for me. Okay, well,

Adam Braus  0:59  
maybe we should start with the solution. And then we'll, I brought time here to help me because I also am not a total expert. I just think like, it's part of the solution. And Tom was so gracious to like, volunteer to come. So maybe I'll share the solution. And then we can, like, unpack it. And and Scott can bring the questions. Okay. And Tom can bring the answers. And I can just sit here and just kick back kick back. Okay, so here's, I have to defend the solution. Okay, so here's the solution. So rank choice voting is great, or at least cool. We should adopt it like at the at the highest levels, like, you know, President and senators and congresspeople, mayors and governors and stuff. But it's hard to get people to change things at that level, because there's like high stakes and people don't know what it is. So and so I think that our first our first place we should we should really hammer rank choice voting is is high school prom queen and king and class president and also then like college like student council, and we that's the first place we should just like contact all the colleges and high schools and get into all use rank choice voting, because then when they're older, they'll be like, Why are we using rank choice voting to vote for governor?

Scot Maupin  2:10  
Everyone will be like, I remember that. We did that for two we did selecting our prom king prom. Right?

Adam Braus  2:15  
Exactly. Okay, that's the solution. Tom's gonna tell us why that either is bad idea. Or harebrained? I think it's hair. You know, we have like a scale. You know harebrained is right in the middle, that's fine. Good with hairbrained. Totally ludicrous. That's like, down on the scale. Up on the scales, like very highly plausible.

Scot Maupin  2:37  
This is definitely an odd foot in the door. Way to get something that you're intending to ultimately, like, have overtake all of our, like our elections situation

Unknown Speaker  2:47  
overtake makes it sound like it's evil. Yeah.

Scot Maupin  2:50  
See, this is me not knowing what I'm talking about. We should

Adam Braus  2:53  
say take over. I know that sounds more evil.

Scot Maupin  2:57  
Alright, so Tom, I'll be honest, the first thing I know about rank choice voting is the recent thing that have come into the news from the Alaska elections. That's where it popped into my head. And I'm like, it definitely put an emphasis that I don't understand all the aspects of what it is at all.

Adam Braus  3:14  
And I don't know what I don't know what he's talking about. What's the Alaska thing?

Unknown Speaker  3:18  
Yeah. So Alaska, has just instituted rank choice voting for their statewide elections. They're the second state to do so after main.

Adam Braus  3:30  
And working out from the extremes. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  3:33  
yeah. You know, you go go all the way left and all the way. Right.

Scot Maupin  3:37  
So Kansas will be the last state after it slowly gets to the middle.

Unknown Speaker  3:43  
Yeah. Yeah. So in Alaska, Scott, probably what you are, have heard about is there was a race, actually a special election to replace. I think it was Don Young, who passed away while in office. And so it was Sarah Palin. And one other Republican and a Democrat that were all running against one another. And there were some more candidates, but some dropped out. And so essentially, it was a three way race. And because Alaska voters approved rank choice voting in 2020. They were planning to use it in the November regular election, but they got to us a little early because of this special election. And it gave a result that surprised a lot of people, which is that it elected the Democrat and neither of the two Republicans. And so that sort of made national news also because Sarah Palin is a national figure. Yes, everybody knows who she is. And so and and she initially came out swinging and and talking very negatively about rank choice voting. It's really interesting because we are about a week away from the general election when we're recording this Some, and her tone has been changing, because I think she's realizing that if she wants to win, she needs to stop attacking the method of voting and also stop attacking her opponents so much, which is the whole point of rank choice voting is that you listing, you don't attack your opponents as a candidate in a rank choice election, because it harms you in a way that using today's election system that we use in most places in the US, you don't lose any points for slinging mud and doing really negative campaigning. Right. But with rank choice voting you do?

Scot Maupin  5:44  
How does that? How does that happen? I'm having a hard time imagining? How does it negatively affect me if I sling mud in a ranked choice voting election? It's a great

Unknown Speaker  5:55  
question. So in rank choice voting, when when you're running for an office where there's one seat, the rule is and rank choice voting, you have to get a majority of the votes 50% plus one vote, you cannot win with less than that a plurality, you just said most of them have a bunch Exactly. And so the way that elections are run in most places in the US is that if you get a plurality, you can win.

Adam Braus  6:24  
So three people are running, and you get 38%, the other person gets 20, you know, or 30%, and a person gets 27%. Person with 38% wins, but only 38% of the whole population voting population even chose them. So really, they have 67% of the people don't want them to be the enof. That's so that's not great. That's not a great outcome.

Unknown Speaker  6:44  
That's exactly right. And so what you see is with plurality elections, there's this incentive that you as a candidate, you just want to get that, let's say it's 38%. And you are willing to anger and alienate a whole bunch of voters as long as you do the math. And so every candidate has campaign consultants that are paid a lot of money to do all the math behind this, and they slice and dice and look at the electorate, and they figure out, Okay, here's your core audience, go out with this message, say these things, and you'll get these people to vote for you.

Adam Braus  7:23  
And that's all you need. And that's all you need. You don't need 51%

Unknown Speaker  7:27  
So with rank choice voting, you need to get 51%. So how do you get 51%? If there are more than two people running? That mathematically, that wouldn't have worked? Normally, he's

Adam Braus  7:38  
gonna say a dumb thing, but that's smart. Yep. can't work. Okay.

Unknown Speaker  7:44  
But with rank choice voting, it works because the other name for rank choice voting is instant runoff voting,

Adam Braus  7:52  
I thought of this with regards to getting people to decide what to eat. For a restaurant, right? So say you're hanging out with four friends. Is this unique? Is this a good example? Yeah. Because if you're sitting around with like, four friends, you're like, Guys, what food should we get? And it's like, well, we could get sushi. We could get pizza, we could get sub sandwiches. Right? So you have three options, right? You know, if you ask your friends, they're not gonna be like sushi or death, right? They're not gonna be like, I only want sushi, or I'm not eating. I hate you all. So

Scot Maupin  8:20  
you clearly don't know my fur. Okay, that's exactly what they

Adam Braus  8:25  
know. Okay, well, friends who are more diplomatic, right? They'd say, like, I'm in the mood for sushi. But if you want some cool for subs, too, that sounds good. But I had pizza. Like for lunch. I don't want pizza. Cool. That's the kind of normal way that people you know, if you were sitting around with friends, that's the kind of normal way that they would like register what they wanted to eat with you. And then we'd say okay, well, most people want most people want you know, subs, but it's actually it's Bob second choice, but it's but it's everybody else's first choice. So we're gonna go with sobs. So it's like, it's like, it's like, because everyone's registering when they vote, they're saying you're not registering to vote. But when they vote when they're saying what they want. They say at that moment, what their first choice, second choice, third choice, as many choices that they want. Then you have all the information once everyone's cast a vote, you have all the information to pick the most preferred candidate. Right? Because it's the candidate that had got either the 51% of the first choices, then you're just done. Or you go to the second choice, I then it gets a bit fuzzy for me exactly how that works. But yeah, how do you keep counting the first choices and then add the second choices? So or it's great. So it was a clip of my now let's use let's continue with the food

Unknown Speaker  9:44  
analogy here. So did a good thing. Yeah. So let's, let's just say that sushi, so I don't know. 41% of people ranked sushi first. Okay, and I'm not Gotta get these numbers, right. But let's for simplicity, then 30% ranked pizza first, and the balance, whatever that is 29 29% Thank you ranked subs first. So subs got the fewest. first place votes. Subs gets eliminated. And then what we do is we say okay, all those people who wanted subs first, what was their second choice?

Adam Braus  10:24  
Those add to? Yeah, the first choices. Yeah. Oh, that's cool.

Unknown Speaker  10:29  
So let's say that 70% of the people who really wanted a sub are okay with sushi, so they put sushi second. So 70% of the 29%. That was about 20% is they get transferred to sushi and the math, I'm pretty sure would work out that sushi would then when it would take sushi over 50. Right. 1%. Cool.

Adam Braus  10:53  
So if you're your first vote, and you're not voting for the least popular candidate, your vote your first vote gets to count you don't doesn't like down it doesn't didn't go to your second choice, just because in the first round, nobody got it, your first choice stays, that vote continues to count.

Unknown Speaker  11:08  
Yeah, until you're when your first choice gets eliminated. If it does get eliminated, you still get a voice. So in in today's elections, all we get to do as voters is indicate one person and you know, the elections officials, everyone else has no idea if we love or hate all the other candidates, right? We take they get no information whatsoever. So you get a lot richer information out of this concept of ordering. Yeah, something right.

Scot Maupin  11:41  
It sounds like It codifies more like you're saying more information into my vote where before my vote says who I want. And like, if it's three people, and I vote for one, maybe the other two, they register as equally not voted for but in reality, maybe one person I really don't like and one person I'd be okay with. And that's not reflected in my vote. But when I can rank them, that information suddenly gets coded into my vote, and is useful later, instead of like a winner take all scenario, like, what you're trying to move away from is reaching what more people would want more of. Exactly. Yeah.

Adam Braus  12:17  
Which is the old witch sushi. Wait, sorry, I got confused.

Scot Maupin  12:22  
Yeah, no, I like that. Because that I'm confused. At first, it's confusing to be like, Oh, how does ranking people get me a more like, a cleaner election at the end were more people what they want is born out.

Adam Braus  12:38  
My my, I'm gonna like my brain goes like a million directions to this with this, because it's so it's so cool. And so interesting to like change to change the rule of like, how we gather the vote a teeny bit, it has all these like cascading sort of, sort of effects. But it seems like right off the bat, like, there would just be like, I mean, we call it like third parties. But to me, it's just like, it would just even be more members of the existing parties with different perspectives. I mean, you basically just have a lot more openness for many different people with many different ideas from many different parties to all be on the ballot. And then we actually find out what Americans actually want. Instead of sort of just believing, you know, 50% of people want 51% of people want Biden or 49, you know, or 51% of people want Trump it's like, what are the what does the American people really want? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  13:29  
we talk about rank choice voting, giving voters more voice and more choice. So the more voice is what we were just talking about, right? That you can actually share more information as a voter, you get to give a richer dataset. As you vote, more choice comes into play. When we start thinking about how rank choice voting changes the incentives for candidates. So to your point, Adam, we get more choice, we get more candidates, because we also eliminate the spoiler effect. So there's, there's this big dynamic that happens and it happens within political parties within ideological groups within racial, ethnic and gender groups as well. Where often a candidate who's thinking about running for office is told why don't you not run? Why don't you let this other candidate who has a little bit of a better chance and is going to pull the same voters that you are why don't you sit this one out? Because we don't want to split the vote or spoil right we don't want to be the spoiler candidate

Adam Braus  14:49  
kinda like how you don't want to release Ender's Game and Harry Potter seven on the same weekend, right? Because like, which one are people gonna get? Exactly how does this How does this So, but wouldn't drink choice vote also the spoiler effect because people might choose like as their second choice, one of them in their first choice the other, and then there's no penalty whatsoever. Because when they get knocked out, the other one gets counted without the first one no matter who no matter which one it is, no matter which ones first, which was exactly, exactly. And so what we like Ralph Nader Ross Perot these like spoiler votes would have been just sort of, they would have been in the data we would have seen Oh, wow, people really liked Ross Perot. 20% of people burn 19% of the population put Ross Perot is their first choice. But then their second choice would have been whoever, whether it was Republican or Democrat. Exactly.

Unknown Speaker  15:39  
Yeah, Nadir and per hour are two very well known spoiler, quote unquote, spoiler candidates, Bernie and Hillary sort of during the primaries, yeah.

Adam Braus  15:50  
So it basically stops it stops it from being really a two party system system? Or what does it still have some incentives to still have two parties,

Unknown Speaker  16:01  
not it doesn't necessarily stop it. And there are a few different flavors of rank choice voting, some of them are more likely to bring in smaller parties, others are less likely to do that. And there's a whole bunch of nuance there. But yes, in general, if you are a Green Party supporter, if you are a Libertarian Party supporter, rank choice voting is very much of interest, because you may not necessarily have your candidate win, right, it still is a very tall mountain to climb to get to 51%. But you can have your candidate maybe pick up 5% of the vote, and more importantly, the eventual winner will know. Oh, 3% of people that eventually voted for me second or third, they actually chose the green candidate first. I should probably go look at that. So wouldn't

Adam Braus  17:03  
it wouldn't just be Green Party. People who are like dyed in the cloth Island, Green Party people. I mean, it's a small number of people. It might even just be environmentally friendly. Democrats. That's right. could actually be like, Oh, God, I can almost like let my loosen my tie and then button my top button. Hey, I get to actually, you know, I get to really vote my conscience in the first place, even though I know, probably the first place isn't going to win. But it's not going to be a throwaway. And it's not a spoiler.

Unknown Speaker  17:32  
That's exactly right.

Scot Maupin  17:34  
So so Tom will, in in application, what would this look like on ballots like the ballot I have now I get to choose between two names. What would what would be different? If rank choice voting is the is the way of having my election here, here in California, I guess.

Unknown Speaker  17:52  
So we actually have rank choice voting in several cities. In California. San Francisco Mayor is rank choice, isn't it? And the Board of Supervisors in San Francisco and the Oakland City council and mayor and Berkeley's mayor and city council, San Leandro, several other cities in the state are using rank choice voting. San Francisco has been using it for 20 years. Actually, I take that back. It got passed by voters 20 years ago, they started using it, I think 2004.

Adam Braus  18:25  
So we use it for certain so you can have a ballot, that's some positions or rank choice and other positions or a first pass the post or yes,

Unknown Speaker  18:33  
we want. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yep. Okay, so

Adam Braus  18:35  
you can have a mixed ballot years asking is that for those races?

Scot Maupin  18:40  
Is that ideal? Do you want a mixed ballot? Or do you want it to be rank choice? The whole thing to be ranked choice voting, essentially? Because it seems like if it works, and it's helpful in some areas, it would be helpful in all areas? Or is that just my lack of experience with this? Trying to overextend it?

Unknown Speaker  18:55  
No, it would be helpful in certainly in in all standard elections that we have in the US, it absolutely would be helpful. And back to your question, Scott about what is the ballot look like? There's a few different ways to do it. And it depends on what voting equipment a given city is using. It can look like a grid, right? Where you have the candidates in the columns on the left, and then you have the right you will fill in the bowl and the snatcher Exactly. Other times, it looks like ballots that a lot of us in California familiar with where you're, you're completing the line, right? There's the arrow and you take a pen and connect it and on those ballots, it's multiple columns of the same candidates listed over and over again and it says Pick your first then pick your second then pick your third and so on and so

Adam Braus  19:51  
and we thought of using maybe America themes, little stickers that you're given and the bald eagle would be one flag would be two and then

Scot Maupin  19:59  
well then we have to have a fight over. Why does bald eagle get to be one and flag has to be two?

Unknown Speaker  20:03  
Well, we could vote on it. You could have a rank choice voting out. Yeah.

Adam Braus  20:07  
So without its standard, it's RCV. All the way down

Scot Maupin  20:10  
without the stickers to create to do the vote. How are we going to vote on which well, we

Adam Braus  20:15  
can start with just the color sticker scheme? Well, blue is the first one and then read is the second one.

Scot Maupin  20:20  
And then how do we decide? I know it's Well, obviously a ranked choice. But absolutely. That's clearly the next choice. So how would we Okay, chicken egg? I gotcha. I gotcha, gotcha. That could

Adam Braus  20:30  
be the next stickers chicken than egg, then chicken again. It gets confusing, but

Scot Maupin  20:35  
no, I think that's the regular No, I think that's the process cheddar. Chicken again, is I think the regular way. Yes. So then, Tom, is it a you said, San Francisco voters voted on this 20 years ago? Is that a thing where place by place? It becomes a thing that gets on the ballot? Which is like, should we proceed in the future with rank choice voting in X, Y, or Z?

Unknown Speaker  21:00  
Yeah, exactly.

Adam Braus  21:02  
I race or can you do it by whole state? Could you say we're going to do the whole ballot? It sounds like what you said was Maine and Alaska, right. So everything,

Unknown Speaker  21:10  
it's by jurisdiction. And so a jurisdiction might be a city, it might be a county, it might be a state, it might be the federal offices at some level. So in practice, the way this works is, like here in California, it's been passed by voters in a number of cities. It has not been passed at the statewide level yet in California, as it has in Alaska, Maine. That's what the organization that I co founded is working on is we're trying to get rank choice voting passed at the statewide.

Adam Braus  21:43  
So the other place that is my mind goes to this is the Civil War, right? There's all this like, crazy stuff on Twitter and people saying, Oh, the country's if you heard this, the country's going to descend into

Scot Maupin  21:55  
civil. I mean, I've heard people talking about divisive parts. Yeah, isn't it?

Adam Braus  21:59  
I mean, I, when I heard that I was like, holy cow. And then and I guess, then the kind of meta discussion about this sort of kind of what sounds like a crazy claim is, I guess, somewhat intelligent people are like, No, this is actually a possibility. Like, it's maybe a distant possibility, but it's like a possibility. Just because of the January 6 stuff is like, oh, my gosh, is this kind of like, you know, as an insurrection going to happen every time we have an election? Are there gonna be contested elections? You know, and it sounds like with the rank choice voting, the person who wins has really broad support, because they have at least 51% of the population, and probably, generally, probably a little more than that is gonna, you know, because it's hard to hit it right on the head. 51%. So they're gonna end up with, you know, a lot of support, which makes me feel like chances of civil war go down. Like we're kind of reducing the chance of civil war. That's right. Well, that's good. Yeah, I

Unknown Speaker  22:53  
truly believe that.

Adam Braus  22:56  
Are you anti civil? Because this podcast is openly pro civil.

Scot Maupin  23:01  
We are. Scott didn't come on. I'm having a civil war with you in the podcast about whether or not it's

Adam Braus  23:07  
another civil civil wars all the way down, Scott. We're gonna have

Scot Maupin  23:14  
an egg and then it cracked open and there was a civil war. Exactly. And then I got you and then the Civil War lays an egg. I don't understand biology.

Adam Braus  23:20  
So I guess, how does it relate? What's the exact mechanics of it reducing that extremism? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  23:24  
to two big ways that it helps depolarize things right. So one is that dynamic that we talked about before where in order to win? So right now, we incentivize candidates to polarize us, right to find divisive issues, to fight culture wars, to focus trans kids, right? All of those things,

Scot Maupin  23:51  
when the election is all or nothing, they can characterize life as all or nothing with the win or loss of the election. Totally,

Unknown Speaker  23:58  
totally. And there are a number of studies that show that right now in the US. We are more motivated by hatred of the other side than we are by love of our our party.

Scot Maupin  24:14  
Well, I was just talking to my dad about because the election coming up in a week. And he's in he lives in Texas. So I was talking to him about election stuff. And he was telling me yeah, my votes this time are not so much voting for these people, but I'm voting against the people who are currently in power that I don't like you. Right, is that I hear that a lot. Yeah, right. So that whole dynamic we incentivize politicians to you know, fanned the flames of that.

Unknown Speaker  24:43  
With first pass the post winner take all elections. It's, it is plain as day a political scientists will tell you that this system that we use today is designed exactly. To do that. It is to sort in polite Because science language, our politics, and we are overly sorted right now, people are at the extremes. And we don't need to be right, we actually need to come back together somewhat. there can always be differences, there should always be differences in what people think government should be doing and shouldn't be doing. But the only way we're going to have, like functional government that actually solves problems is if we have people who are wanting to find consensus, right? Yeah, they still want to represent what their voters want, what their values are, but they need to be able to find consensus and rank choice voting requires people to find consensus in order to get into power in the first place.

Adam Braus  25:48  
My mom said, when when Biden was running my mom, I'm from Wisconsin, and my mom said, Biden is Biden is just blood pressure medication for the country. That was either although that's pretty smart. Actually, that's pretty much she's a doctor. So she kind of thinks in terms of Doctor stuff. She's like his blood predication, she's you know, but then I look at the post, you know, I look at what's happened since Biden become president. And if you look on Twitter or anywhere, it didn't lower the blood pressure very much. I mean, maybe lowered her blood pressure. She's a Democrat, but it didn't lower the country's blood pressure. But it sounds like rank choice voting, there really is a blood pressure medication for the country. Yeah, it would actually make it so that just the whole pressure of the whole system would just come down a few notches. We could still disagree. We could still have differences. But it wouldn't it wouldn't make the politicians have an incentive. Or like it wouldn't pay to ratchet things up to 10. At every single turn, right? We have social media to do that. Thanks. And Elon Musk now can can really fanned the flames, he can really turn it up to 11.

Scot Maupin  26:54  
Well, and in the food analogy, you don't end up with three people who like pizza, deciding that pizza is the place where all five of you go if the other two people were like, I don't care where we go, just not pizza. You know what I mean? Just don't do that. Right? You're not forcing them to eat something they don't want. Right. depressurizes a lot of pressurized spots right now? I think.

Unknown Speaker  27:13  
So. I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with the verb that we now have getting primaried. You guys heard this before, right? So so getting primary typically means if you're on the right, that someone is going to come in further to the right of you, and they're going to win the primary. And if you're in a red state, or a red district, they get to win. Same thing can happen on the blue side that you can have someone come to the left of you. And so anyone who is moderate, is very scared that they're going to get primaried by something more extreme. Yeah. And so the word primary now a verb gets right to the heart of the issue, which is we have primaries for a reason. We need to winnow down the field, so that we can actually get right if we had 10, or 15, or 20 candidates running in the November election, one of them could win with 5% of the vote 10% of the vote, right,

Adam Braus  28:14  
of the primary. So it's the most hardcore little extreme group could win.

Unknown Speaker  28:18  
Exactly. And so So primaries, we use primaries today to winnow the field, the issue is that primary voters, the ones who actually take the time to go vote during primaries are way more partisan. They're the far more motivated, engaged, people that are going to be way more partisan, they tend to be whiter, older, richer than the country broadly. So it brings in a lot of problems with representation in terms of diversity, across age, gender, race, ethnicity, so on and so forth. And so when you get rid of the primary, which is something that rank choice voting can do, because now you can have 10 candidates in the general election, and someone will still win with a majority. Because math, because and so by getting rid of primaries, that's a huge impact on reducing the extreme as

Adam Braus  29:23  
well, I kind of do a little because like, I do a little bit of preparation. I know it doesn't seem like it, but I do sometimes do a little bit of preparation for these things. And I was on Twitter and I was chatting with people about rank choice voting, and I was I was tweeting at right wing and left wing partisan handles, and I was saying, What do you think of hashtag rank choice voting? Do you think it could help? You know, things? And actually, I got almost equal engagement from both right and left wing and equally positive slash questioning, which was really cool. Because I mean, these were people who were like, you know, I mean, these these are horrendous. handles. I mean thing, both sides really, there were good people on both sides. But in this case, bad people on both sides, you know, very partisan handles, you know, and I was saying what about Rachel's voting, and both were coming back saying, Hey, this is pretty cool. Yeah, this, I think that would be important. That would be good. But one, one guy came back when one guy or when I don't know what they were, but they handled message back, actually, this, this doesn't really change anything, because outcomes are almost exactly the same under rank choice voting, as under, under non rank choice voting, they linked to some thing or whatever. Was that just trash on the internet?

Unknown Speaker  30:33  
No. Not necessarily, but it kind of misses the point. And so a couple of things about that. Number one is when it comes to electoral systems, right? These are very, very, actually they're not they're not complex things unto themselves. But there are very complex social dynamics going on behind the scenes. And so when you change an electoral system, it becomes impossible to run counterfactuals and say, What, oh, what would have happened? Yeah, so it really is important. Not, it's tempting, like we were talking earlier about Nader and perot as spoilers, it would be tempting to say, Oh, if there were ranked choice voting, you know, Bush would have won in 92. And Gore would have won in 2000. But that's not an accurate statement at all, because the candidates change their behavior. significantly. The voters change their bid,

Adam Braus  31:37  
just like the city changed the rules of basketball players would play differently. Coach, yes, Coach differently. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  31:43  
So he may be saying, or she may be saying, you know, if you compare one election to the next, and let's say that there was a move to rank choice voting in between, and you got the same result or something like that person, or if you zoom out, and you say, well, it still is electing the same ratio of Democrats to Republicans or something like that, therefore, it doesn't matter. Right. That's that's not an accurate statement. You know, maybe strictly in that sense. It could be, but it's really hard to know, the counterfactuals it's effectively I think,

Adam Braus  32:15  
your your, what you started out with with Palin. I mean, if Palin is actually like, regulating her own speech a little bit, right, like pulling, like lifting your foot off the accelerator of, you know, this kind of radicalism. That already is an indication that hey, this is actually having a an effect on on the way she plays the game because we changed the rules a little bit for the better

Unknown Speaker  32:39  
last weekend. She hugged the Democrat, she that she's running against,

Adam Braus  32:47  
wow, she hugged the Democrat, like on stage or something like yes, there was a good debate. Yeah, hug. There's a

Scot Maupin  32:53  
photo of her, she was encouraging people to rank the Mary Peralta think above the other Republican candidate.

Adam Braus  33:02  
That's exactly right. So Scott's came into this. And I don't know anything about this. He knows like, this is the only

Scot Maupin  33:07  
thing I know, he knew Alaska, the Alaska meme, or the Alaska race from a couple weeks ago.

Adam Braus  33:11  
That's awesome. That's awesome. I don't know any of this stuff. So she was trying to. So there's this whole other kind of meta game that comes in that people as Americans now who don't have rank choice voting, this would be like a whole new thing does like, oh, trying to jockey one, like one of my opponents actually higher than one of my other opponents, that would start to happen in rank choice voting, right.

Unknown Speaker  33:30  
And by the way, that is one of the concerns that a lot of people have is they say, well, doesn't rank choice voting. Let the politicians game the system. And if if the definition of gaming the system is to look for common ground and consensus with your opponents, and then point those things out, then yes, yes.

Adam Braus  33:56  
Games.

Scot Maupin  33:57  
That's a good game. That's a good game to play.

Adam Braus  34:00  
Yeah. It's like it's like I'm, I'm gaming this relationship. I got you a present. And I care about you and I want us to work out. Like, are you just gaming? This you manipulative jerk? You want this relationship to be great. It's like yes, I do is let's so you did it. You admit you're manipulative jerk? Well, I just got you a present and I'm going out to dinner. Like, I don't see what the

Scot Maupin  34:24  
like you were talking about the person who was responding to you going well, the outcomes are all the same. I mean, it is the same thing. It's not the same because ultimately, in an election, one person is going to win the thing and that's the way it is if it's a rigged election, or if it's a really fair election, but the the way that the people participating in the election feel about it changes and if they feel like the process is better, and more efficient and more reflects the will of the group of the people better than that does change it, you know, even if the outcomes are the same, the process is not the same and over time, more More confidence in elections creates more participation in elections, which creates a better reflection of the electorate.

Adam Braus  35:06  
So wait, wait, we haven't talked about the solution yet high schools and colleges. Okay, this is the youth, the youth of today. This is where we need to begin with the youth. So we go and we say, you need to pick prom queen, king and queen, right? It's a vote. Yeah. And you gotta pick a class president. I guess they pick like, secretary's and treasurer and stuff, too.

Scot Maupin  35:26  
I don't know about those. There's definitely voting for definitely them government. Yeah. High school everyone.

Adam Braus  35:31  
And I don't think it's a hard ask to just be like, Hey, why don't you use rank choice voting? I feel like young people would be like, cool, or Sure, whatever. Okay, that, you know, and then they know it. And then they keep using it all the way through their lives, kind of like, you know, Apple, Apple does this very smartly. Ever since I was little, I had an apple two when I was like seven years old. Because my parents were like, we should probably have one of these. And, you know, Apple give discounts to schools to get apples into the schools, right? Because then kids would use it. And then they when they got older, they're like, I want an apple. Yeah. Right. So like, shouldn't we be doing that exact same thing? In the high schools? And then the colleges?

Unknown Speaker  36:11  
You're totally right. That yes, that

Adam Braus  36:16  
I rarely get that I that kind of instant affirmation. Thank you, Tom, not just in this podcast, but personally, too. So this is good.

Unknown Speaker  36:24  
So I'll tell you, lots of universities, their Student Government's use rank choice voting. Oh, really? So I'm halfway there here in California, I think all or almost all of the UC schools. So Berkeley, UCLA, UC San Diego, Santa Cruz, Davis, so on and so forth. All of their student bodies use rank choice voting today. Awesome. I looked up to see if I could find any high schools that talk about using rank choice voting, I found a few, not very many. I don't know if that means that not many high schools are doing it or if it just doesn't get talked about very much. But there definitely are some high schools using it. And certainly lots of universities, Stanford as well. Sonoma State, I mean, like here in California, tons and tons and across the country. I mean, if you took the top 50 or 100 universities, I bet 80 or 90% of their student governments are using Wow, rank choice. So it's

Adam Braus  37:30  
already used. Yeah. For college. But one of the biggest cleavages in American society is between, you know, educated and college educated and non college educated. Yep. So high school might might be the angle it's true. Might want to try to try it and thought about that. Yeah. Oh, whoa, double pat on the back affirmation. And then I don't know what the other ones called out thinking or something

Scot Maupin  37:53  
where you have to stop it to Pat's on the back because you don't have any more hands so

Adam Braus  37:57  
I can borrow? Can't you just reach over I was just when we get to the third panel, I'll just wink at

Unknown Speaker  38:03  
you. Well, isn't a pat on the back supposed to come from somebody else? You pat yourself on the back.

Adam Braus  38:10  
I think this is showing a little bit about me, and my life. But a lot have been a lot of self Pat's, let's put it that way. I do like that as a joke to tell people everyone raise your hand, I do this with my student. I'm a professor I do with my students, sometimes everyone raise your hand and reach back and patch the students all that? Well, they don't all laugh but some of them laugh.

Scot Maupin  38:34  
So in high school, you would have to get people on you would have to get how do you even get into high school,

Adam Braus  38:41  
it's all about the student to student connection, in my opinion. So you take these colleges that are already like all about it. And you say, Hey, this is what I would say you're in charge of the actual organization. Do it, it's up to you. But what I would do is I would say we all these Oh, my gosh, all these colleges all do this already. Let's contact them and say, Hey, do you want to be the president of an organization on your campus, it's called the rank choice voting advocacy organization. And your job is to contact all your local high schools, like everyone who joins the club has a high school, they all go back to their own high school and say, I go to Berkeley, I go to Stanford, and you know, we do at Berkeley and Stanford, we do this. That's what I think you guys should do. Because I was, you know, in, in your high school, and I was on Student Council, and we should have done it that way. And they know those people because, you know, they went to school with some of them. And you know, and then those high schoolers all go, Oh, my God, I'm talking to someone who is at Berkeley, and they're cool, because they're in college, and they're talking to me, and they're saying that rank choice voting is the thing and I should do it, and they'll do it, you know. So I think I think that's how I would do it is to get those colleges that are already doing it and have them push it down, you know, into the high schools. Because if you talk to a high school or you're like a grown up, they're gonna be like, Who the hell is this? You know, you can't get any respect. You know, you don't

Scot Maupin  39:53  
understand I'm trying to affect your elections, so that I rewire your brain so that later on you rewire our Extra while I'm an old person,

Adam Braus  40:02  
they're like, Okay, Boomer, right. Like you don't want to hear that. Just listen to

Scot Maupin  40:05  
me do what I say, Jean, you think that

Adam Braus  40:08  
skateboards off my yard? That's what they don't want to hear. But the college student, they'd love to hear from them. I think you're

Scot Maupin  40:16  
right. I will say I think that the the average high schooler, the average teen today is much more aware of political issues than I was when I was in high school is much more engaged or involved in play. And maybe I'm just around more active teens than I was. But definitely, they seem to be more aware and more, more worldly with knowing what's going on than I was for sure.

Unknown Speaker  40:43  
There are actually high school students that are involved in the California RCV coalition. And I've been amazed, like, I was totally not thinking about this kind of stuff when I was 16 years old. I mean, either they are. So there is some hope for the future.

Adam Braus  41:01  
That's the real thing to do. So you get the college students to introduce it to the high schools. But the real wildfire is if you get the hype, these kind of like high really high functioning high schoolers. They want to always put stuff on their college application where they were like the president of something or they started something or they did this club, and their club that they can be the president of is I contacted 25 high schools across the country, and I got them all to adopt rank choice voting, right? Yeah, Berkeley admissions officer is going to be yes. Right. Political Science you're in. Yeah, that's really cool. And so the high school, the high school, I mean, college to high school, you get that kind of Oh, you're in college. But high school, high school works really well. Because like the peer, they can like speak the same language, you know, and

Scot Maupin  41:42  
so I'm actually now mad that my current valid will not let me rank and so I'm just going to start writing, like range, like number one. Number two. I'm going to start doing this to my own ballots.

Adam Braus  41:54  
Why should we be able to do that take a right in. Take a right in right choice.

Scot Maupin  41:58  
They certainly won't discount my entire ballot after I write and annotate and like put little paragraphs get you the stickers. I need this today. Definitely want to see my bald eagle sticker. That's one you've discovered a real ballot now. Okay. All right.

Adam Braus  42:12  
All right. All right. So you're saying this has already been already been? Because I'm so it's already been in college, but hasn't been in high school. So it may it may be helpful. But if we did it, and we'd have to wait, like, we'd have to wait until those people were like, 50. Right. And the problem is power doesn't really get passed on until you're like 50 years old. I think it's a yes. And so it's it's a piece of the puzzle. Yeah, it's a long it's a long horizon. Yeah, thing.

Unknown Speaker  42:35  
Because Scott, you asked earlier, how does this actually like come about? Right. And, you know, so shocking. election systems are chosen by election. Right? So we said we need people. Yeah, we need people to get comfortable with it. Because really, the single biggest thing that holds back reforms like this, that are really common sense, and and pretty much everyone gets on board with is just the status quo bias, right? It's this just inertia. It's like, oh, that's new and scary. Oh, no, yeah, I'm not comfortable with it. It seems weird. So there's, there's just an immediate, like, Hmm, I think I'll just stick with my current system, you know, and there's back to like, the incredibly high stakes, right? You feel like every election, we're on the precipice of the country falling into civil war. So therefore, you can't possibly mess with the system. Like, we don't know what's going to happen if you do that. So there's just a lot of fear around changing things. And so the more that people are

Adam Braus  43:39  
open, to changing things to I mean, there you can see, right, the, what do they say the same word, character and opportunity? Did catastrophe and opportunity are the same word in Chinese the same character not heard that anyways, it's like, yeah, never let a good crisis go to waste. But people are so also so like, Oh, my God, the system saw on fire. It's so crazy. It's leading such crazy. We're looking for actually systemic change. Maybe, too. So I mean, there's maybe there's an opportunity there,

Unknown Speaker  44:06  
right. Yeah, you do follow that up with you know, I'm comfortable with today's system. Really, really happy with the results that are happening?

Adam Braus  44:13  
Yeah. Like you, like people, like armed group of people going to the Capitol on January 6, like, I mean, in my lifetime, I never thought that would happen. I always felt like America, like we have our differences. But, you know, the election is the election. And then we go about our lives, right,

Unknown Speaker  44:30  
General reticle violence was not

Adam Braus  44:33  
something where you I mean, Trump kind of built us up to it. So when it happened, I wasn't totally surprised. But if I could compare that to like, my 15 year old self, I would have been, like, totally blown away, like I would have just been on unimaginable, right? And now there are 15 year olds who think that's America, right? America is where we have people storming the Capitol when they don't like the outcomes of elections and that's not good.

Scot Maupin  44:53  
I think, Tom, I like what you're saying because it tells me that it is made you know, it's not At the core of rank choice, voting isn't what scares people or makes people uncomfortable. It's just the unfamiliarity. And so if the resistance is like you're saying the status quo bias where they're like, I don't know, I am already doing this thing. It's not causing me pain right now. So maybe I don't change it. But if you can get people a little bit at a time exposure to rank choice voting in, like, certain races on their ballot, or in high school, or college or earlier, it's not an unfamiliar thing that people are going oh, no, what's this going to do? They're going oh, yeah, I know that. And I can see how implementing it would have a positive effect on everything.

Adam Braus  45:34  
Okay, so I came in here, guns blazing with the high school thing. Okay, maybe that's a long horizon. That's like a 30 year horizon thing maybe worthwhile doing, but it's a 30 year horizon thing, okay.

Scot Maupin  45:45  
I'm imagining the farmer Adam. If he like plant seeds in the ground, and he stares at them. He's like, whoa, what's going on? Why aren't these Alright? And then you go to the store and get like full carrots and then plant to the ground. Instead, you stand over, you're like, Ah, now I have seen?

Adam Braus  46:02  
Well, anyways, maybe there's a way to do a fast horizon thing to get people used to it. But I haven't it's not too hard to explain to people because people do it every day for I feel like anytime you're trying to get a little consensus of a group of people, generally you rank like today, like in my like, my college people get to choose their like advisor, we call them coaches, your coach, and we say rank, which coach you'd like first, second, third people currently do it. I don't need to like explain to them what I mean by that. I just say, pick, you know, first choice second. And granted, I'm not voting for something, but it's, it's, you know, if the first choice people, if that coach gets full up with with Cochise then then then they get their second choice or whatever. And it's first come first serve ranked people understand ranking. So I don't know how much more familiarity we really need. So besides getting familiarity, what's the process to like, make California like Alaska or make another state like Alaska or Maine? Alaska do.

Unknown Speaker  47:01  
Alaska had a ballot measure. And here in California will need a ballot measure as well. So the good news is that there is a process to get it done. The bad news is it's really expensive to run ballot measure campaigns on California.

Adam Braus  47:18  
So who's gonna pay for it? Are there big moneyed interests who want rank choice voting? Not really am it's something told me that all the big money wasn't going to be making democracy any better?

Unknown Speaker  47:31  
Rare, rare.

Scot Maupin  47:34  
Tom, with the organization you're working with, how are they? How are you guys affecting the change? Without like those huge donor influxes are what's what's your strategy of getting it on getting that measure? Yeah. On the ballot?

Unknown Speaker  47:47  
Yeah. So we are focused on a few different things. Our long term goal is to run a statewide ballot measure in California to get it done, which would mean all of the offices that we vote for on a statewide basis, like Governor and controller and Lieutenant Governor, and so on and so forth, Attorney General and the California State Assembly and Senate. And the federal offices, the people that we send to DC, like the House of Representatives are represented representatives, that they would all be voted in using rank choice voting. That's the goal. But it's going to take several years to build up both the the money and just to build awareness across the state. So I mentioned earlier, there's a few cities that are using rank choice voting already. Our near term goal in the next couple of elections 2024 2026. so on, is to get more California cities using rank choice voting because it's relatively short of a city by Easy Street. Yes, like locusts. Yeah. Oh, sorry. That's more more negatives. Sorry. Yeah, so getting more cities to adopt rank choice. Voting is sort of the near term focus on high schools, and just someone is in there. Oh, absolutely. Yes. That's awesome.

Scot Maupin  49:15  
So if Alaska changed in 2020? That's super recent. It has main been a ranked choice voting place for a lot longer than that, or was it really recent as well?

Unknown Speaker  49:24  
2016.

Adam Braus  49:26  
Wow. So this is like right now happening? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  49:28  
This is like San Francisco, was the first sizable city to adopt rank choice voting in a long time. Now, the irony is that this also happened once before. About 80 years ago, during the progressive era, when there were a lot of reforms, like after women's suffrage, there was a lot of energy to make voting better, yeah, to make voting better. And so a number of cities actually did start using In rank choice voting at that time, it actually got repealed in a bunch of places. And the reason it got repealed in those places back then is that the the selling point of rank choice voting at that time was to break up party machines in cities. So you had, you know, you think about like Chicago or New York City, where, you know, the problem they had 5060 years ago was you had these really powerful party bosses that were just extremely corrupt. And so rank choice voting was used to kind of diminish their ability to like, pull all the strings in the background. And the issue is that they were still very powerful, even after rank choice voting passed, and so they were able to get it removed in a fair number of cities. Yeah, 5060 years ago. So I think every state, or almost every state has at least one organization focused on getting rank choice voting to happen there. So this is happening across the country. In fact, Nevada, is going to vote next week about adopting rank choice voting.

Scot Maupin  51:11  
That was my next one. I was gonna say if Maine first and then Alaska, do you know who's on the horizon? Coming up? And it sounds like Nevada has one. For statewide? Yeah, where that would change it so that from then on, it would be like how it is in Maine and Alaska, where they would get rank choice options for their for their elections going forward? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  51:30  
they actually have a weird quirk in Nevada, where they have to get it passed twice for it to actually take effect. I don't know the exact reason why, but it has to win in 2022. And then it has to win again in 2020, forcing, maybe they want to be really sure that people want to change there that

Adam Braus  51:49  
reminds me of the ancient Persians, who they would get really drunk and deliberate about a decision. And then they would get sober that sober up, and then they deliberate again, on the same topic. And then they would see if they agreed their drunken selves agreed with their sober selves, and only if both agreed, then they would go forward with it.

Unknown Speaker  52:07  
I think that's great. Maybe

Adam Braus  52:08  
that's what Nevada is gonna do.

Scot Maupin  52:10  
I'll go, I'll go back into the casino The following morning and go no, you don't understand. My Drunk self lost all that money at blackjack, but my sober self, would actually like to replay those games.

Adam Braus  52:24  
And only if both agree, will you then take for money?

Scot Maupin  52:30  
You actually have to make me lose twice. This is Nevada, you know,

Adam Braus  52:33  
this is about that away. But there is no there isn't like a real. So what you're saying is it's a bit like state by state. There isn't like a kind of national organization that puts all the states together. And everyone gets in a room together and says, Okay, how do we like as quickly as possible, get as much of the country voting RCV as possible, every

Unknown Speaker  52:53  
state's got really unique problems to solve and unique electoral dynamics. So it really does have to be a state by state solution. And so there's actually a bill that's been introduced in the House of Representatives, starting in 2019, has been reintroduced each each session, each session since called the fair representation act. And the fair representation Act would make rank choice voting happen at the federal level for the House of Representatives. here's the rub. Guess who gets to vote that in

Adam Braus  53:31  
the House vote of Representatives? They're like, No, we know how to play this game. We don't want to change the rules. Bingo. Yeah. So it's got to be a state by state

Unknown Speaker  53:40  
thing. Yeah. Because in but in some states, actually not in all states. In some states, you the voters can choose through a ballot measure, like in California, some, some states actually don't have that they still have to go through their legislature.

Adam Braus  53:53  
So even if you go to a state, I don't know why I'm just gonna pick a random seed like let's say Montana doesn't have ballot measures. Maybe they do. People from Montana, I apologize. They all have our Montana listenership is going to be outraged. They they don't have a ballot measure. If they don't have a ballot measure. They have to then do that. Like as representatives, they have to vote their own. Yeah, change to the rule that got them into power. So that's probably won't happen in states where there isn't ballot measures. It can it can can was unlikely, at least as a first state. Yeah. So actually, Utah is another good example, Utah hasn't adopted rank choice voting statewide. But they have allowed it to happen in any city in the state that wants it. And that was a legislative driven effort. It seems like any state that was supported by people who honestly believed in this idea of kind of lowering the blood pressure of the country would want to do it. I agree, right? Because if they were like, you know, I'm just I don't want even if you're on it doesn't matter what side you're on. Like maybe you're on the Democrat side, and you're like, I'm sick and tired of hearing all this crazy stuff from both extremes. Are you on the even if you're on the Republican side, you might be like, I don't want to have to go to rallies and like, say these things. I don't believe in these things. I'm a normal, you know, I'm just a normal citizen if the system that's actually forcing me to go and say things that are playing inflammatory and kind of attackee. I'd rather just let's just lower the temperature in the room here. So it seems like there could be support from both sides, even at the legislative level. And maybe it's not the first maybe it's not the highest, maybe the ballot measures are kind of the first Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  55:30  
voters are more in favor of rank choice voting than elected officials are,

Adam Braus  55:34  
yeah, it gives them more more of a toss up for elected officials. But for voters, it definitely gives them there's

Unknown Speaker  55:39  
just a lot more math and a lot more considerations that a elected official is going to do as a self interested person.

Adam Braus  55:48  
But the voters, it's like, I get more choice. Yes, I want that. So

Scot Maupin  55:52  
once you get the question to the voters to respond to it, it's a win. But the real hurdle is trying to get that question out there. You know, try Exactly, exactly. Okay.

Adam Braus  56:06  
I understand you're saying very interesting.

Scot Maupin  56:08  
Well, I mean, it worked on me, as soon as I come in here, not understanding very much about rank choice voting other than just what's included in the term. And by by where we're at now. I'm like, Yeah, this is hugely helpful. And I would be in favor of this on any and all ballots. So it's a good example of how if you just let people know what this is and what it would do for them, you get support, like almost immediately. It's not controversial that way.

Adam Braus  56:35  
Yeah, maybe this will be the next big thing. Maybe this will be a big a big push. It'd be great because it would just God it would just make watching the news better. That's what I want. I just want to be able to watch the news and not have it be like crazy people's crazy things all the time. You know? Yeah. I remember when I was like a kid, we would watch we would watch the MacNeil Lehrer NewsHour, right on PBS. You guys. Notice that? We didn't call it that MacNeil Lehrer newshour. I didn't learn that until I was like probably 20 years old that was actually called that. We call it when Beggs we would say my mom would be like, while your father's in the other room. He's watching when Ben and I thought and we and we would just refer to it as when bags. Like I had dad loves watching. He watches when bags. Okay. And I just thought that was the name of the show. I thought the name of the show was waiting bags until I was about 20. And then I found out Oh, no, no, that's just my mom making fun of what my dad was watching on TV. Budget bags and when Yeah, but if you get a chance to look at watch the Muller news hour. That's what it used to be. It used to be like, you know, intelligent people with differing opinions like talking about things. And you could kind of argue that you'd liked one way or the other better. And maybe one was a little more hard Millington maybe conservatives are more hard nosed, you know, and the left me the left was a little more kind of like idealistic, but it was kind of like a reasonable conversation. No, I just I can't do the news anymore. You know? Yeah, I really listened to it.

Unknown Speaker  57:57  
I mean, it's completely different sets of facts. Right. Yeah.

Scot Maupin  58:00  
Entertainment has become a more primary goal of a lot of television shows more than information.

Adam Braus  58:08  
Yeah, I can play I can plug though media that's not corporate backed. I think there's a lot of really interesting stuff on the internet now that's independently funded. And when it becomes independently funded, it becomes a lot more interesting. Yeah. substack and yeah, exactly you can get I think the good comparison I've heard is media diet. So if you watch kind of the corporate stuff, then it's kind of like eat a bunch of Doritos and Arby's all the time. That's kind of your meat. Okay. Like salad No, no, Scott, eat salads and persimmons.

Scot Maupin  58:38  
You're offering me a plate of Doritos and Arby's versus a plate of salad and you're curious which way I'm gonna go.

Adam Braus  58:45  
What if it's like brussel sprouts? That's like fried in like bacon grease.

Scot Maupin  58:50  
You can put whatever you want for salad that I'm not going to eat. I don't mind. I really don't. I'm gonna be over here with my Doritos and Arby's having a good time. I don't

Adam Braus  58:58  
what if it's like delicious steak. You know what's healthy because it's you know,

Unknown Speaker  59:04  
it's not it's natural. It's not dungeon meat from RV,

Scot Maupin  59:07  
create a whole nother meal and then I put lettuce around it until you

Adam Braus  59:11  
are like Thai Thai food. They have the meat salads of you have this LARP is delicious. But they're like salad going to retire restaurant. Look under salad on the restaurant. The rest of you don't talk about Yeah, it's like I do is like salad and then it's like pork salad. Beef Salad. Chicken Salad. I'm like, I like Thailand. I like Thai salads. This is great. There's barely any lettuce. Well, maybe should we or should we wrap it up? Are we ever getting to the end here? Scott? We

Scot Maupin  59:38  
might be Yeah. Okay. I think I think we're covering it. Well, I what I wanted to ask was so if someone hears this and is really into joining up with rank choice voting and helping this become a reality, what would be steps that they could take or how would they How would someone just listening to this get involved?

Adam Braus  59:53  
The plug and we can put things in the show notes too. So okay, great. Just tell us

Unknown Speaker  59:57  
and yeah, so there's that You know, as, as you might expect, go on the web, I'm going to give you two websites real quickly. There's a national organization. So if you're not in California, go to fairvote.org fairvote.org. And if you are in California, go to Cal R C v.org. And that's the organization that I'm with. And both of us and a bunch of other really great orgs around the country are working on rank choice voting and trying to get it done. So wait,

Scot Maupin  1:00:29  
what was the first one again? The national one? fairvote.org. And then the California specific one is Cal rcv.org. Yeah. And we'll put in the show notes. We'll have them in the show notes as well.

Adam Braus  1:00:41  
Awesome. Yeah. Thanks so much, Tom. This is awesome. Thanks. And hosting us too.

Scot Maupin  1:00:46  
Thank you for letting us invade your home. This Sharon home is a solution here.

Unknown Speaker  1:00:51  
Right here. You know, we're talking kitchen table issues at the kitchen table. I love it.

Scot Maupin  1:00:56  
Well, this has been great. Thank you so much, Tom. Thank you, Adam. Thanks, Scott. And thank you for listening. We'll see you next time. Take care. Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai